Beat Digital Overload: Stay Sharp, Focused & In Control

🎧 Feeling Burnt Out by Your Screen? You're Not Alone.

In this powerful episode of the Thrive Careers Podcast, host Olajumoke Fatoki sits down with workplace culture expert Craig to unpack the growing crisis of digital overwhelm in today’s fast-paced, tech-driven work environments.

From non-stop notifications to Zoom fatigue, they dive deep into the root causes of digital fatigue, including rapid technological advancement, hyper-productivity culture, and our natural struggle with distraction.

🌍 Learn how different generations experience digital intensity—and why Gen Z might be struggling more than you think.
💡 Discover practical strategies to set healthy digital boundaries, boost productivity, and reclaim your mental clarity.
🤖 Hear insights on how AI and mindful technology design are reshaping communication—and how organizations can lead the way in building healthier digital workplaces.
🧠 Plus, explore the transformative role of mindfulness, intentional communication, and human connection in managing digital overload.

Whether you're a remote worker, team leader, or just someone trying to survive the constant pings and dings—this episode offers eye-opening perspectives and actionable tools to help you thrive in the digital age.

🔍 Keywords: digital overwhelm, workplace burnout, digital fatigue, remote work stress, tech overload, mindfulness at work, digital wellness, workplace productivity, mental health, communication strategies, AI and the future of work

For more insights, you can get a copy of Craig's book here https://amzn.to/4imx15o

Transcript

Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of the Thrive Careers podcast. I am Olajumoke Fatoki.

And in today's episode, we are diving into a challenge that so many of us face, navigating digital overwhelm in the modern workplace. With the advent of email overloads, endless Zoom meetings, and constant connectivity, a lot of professionals are feeling stretched thin, feelings of overwhelm here, there, and everywhere. But if we could rethink our relationship with technology,

I'll take that again. But what if we could rethink our relationship with technology, you know, to thrive instead of just survive? That's exactly why we are here today. We're exploring, we're going to be exploring the topic of navigating digital overwhelm. And to lead us in that conversation, we have an organizational researcher, a professor, the author of the book, Digital Overwhelm.

I think that is his third book. His expertise draws on original research and spiritual wisdom. He offers a practical framework to transform the stress of modern work. 

It's a pleasure to have you join us today, Craig. And before we dive further into the conversation, we'd like for you to briefly share with us about your journey and what inspired you to write the book, Digital Overwhelm.


Yes, thank you for having me in this conversation, Ola. It's a pleasure to be with you too. And I think that I kind of got into this research about digital overwhelm without knowing I was going to be doing research about digital overwhelm. I reached out to some alumni from my own communication program at my previous university, which is a college called Trinity in Chicago. And yeah, I started asking them how they were coping and dealing with the intensities of the early 2020s. This was in the middle of the pandemic and the stories they were telling me made my jaw drop and made me take a lot of notes. And I thought, maybe this is worth exploring more. And so that's how this this kind of exploration began. Simply talking with previous students.


Then, of course, I opened up the research and talked to people who were not my students necessarily, but talked to all kinds of people. They were all Gen Z and millennial professionals. But asking the same question, how are you dealing? How are you coping? And I synopsized how they were coping or what they were coping with by describing it as digital overwhelm.

COVID period was, I don't even have the right words to describe it, but I had my fair share. So I can imagine what their responses would be. And you know, different generations responded to this, the COVID phenomenon in different ways. I am a millennial. The way I coped with it was quite different with the way that the Gen Z, you know, approached it. And of course, even the baby boomers.

Well.


across different generations. And I love the word that you use, exploration. Like when you were going about the research and all of that. And something I also stumbled on, I mentioned that to you that I was listening to a podcast that you had granted. And you spoke about the fact that while you were researching this, you yourself became like a learner.

Okay, so I was just speaking to the fact that you mentioned that going through the process of writing that book sort of puts you in the learner's seat all over again. Exactly, that I really love that because it shows your readiness to keep evolving. You don't feel like you have attained the height of everything that you need to know. For a professor, I mean,

but you still went in search of knowledge and put that together. So thank you so much. And that's why you're here today, because we feel like we can resonate with some of the things that you've done and we can learn from that experience as well. Thank you. All right. So, okay. 

Yeah, I was thinking that like anybody who, you know, enters the space of work culture today knows that it is confusing, knows that it is potentially bewildering. There's always a lot more going on in the workplace than you can easily pay attention to. And so, yeah, one of the first things you have to learn is I am a learner here. Like what is going on? So that's, that's, I was sort of cornered into that perspective. It wasn't.

extra virtue on my part, was just like, yeah, I need to learn, I need to figure this out. And every week I publish a newsletter called The Mode Switch in which I try to say, okay, here's a thing people are dealing with in work culture today, you know, like, how do we deal with this? How are people finding ways to cope? And do more than cope. So, yeah.

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. I love, know, you already mentioned something that we'll get into very briefly, but there is this icebreaker that we love that we like to play with our guests. And of course we're going to flip that over to

Our podcast is all about career. So we sort of found a fun career question, know, and turn that into an icebreaker to just help us ease into the conversation. All right. So if your career were a movie, what would the title be and why? Yeah.

okay. I think the title might be something like, and then. Because, yeah, right in the middle of 2022, when I was researching other people's careers and thought that I had some distance from what their experience was right in the middle of what we core the great resignation, I actually resigned from my job and

Then I joined another institution and yeah, it's been a life-altering, perspective-changing, mode-switching experience for me. So what kind of genre would the movie be? I guess I really like A24 drama movies, so I would hope it would be something like that. Maybe a little bit of a slow burn, know? Not a Jason Bourne action movie, but...

a drama where people are getting to know one another and figuring out how they can relate to each other and maybe dealing with some bigger questions. That's the kind of stuff I really enjoy.


I love it. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. All right. So we'll move into our core conversations for today. So are you ready? Beautiful. All right. So we're going to start on the model, you know, the world that we all live in today. Digital tools have become essential in today's workplace.

But they are also a source of stress. We can all attest to that. And based on your research, what are the main factors driving digital fatigue among professionals today?


Yes, yes. The main factor is driving digital fatigue. The number one factor, I think, is technological development. Most of us are more subject to that development than we are actors in the development. Most of us don't get to be a part of the design of new technologies.

And so we just receive these things. We just download them. Our phones need to be updated. Our laptops need to be changed. And that constant evolution and development of technology is exciting. Whoa, look at all the cool stuff we can do. But it's constantly changing the ground conditions under us. And so that's the big factor is just technological development.

Sometimes I'm a little frustrated with the people who are doing the technological development. I benefit from their work for sure, but they're not particularly democratic in the way they do this. so stuff rolls out of Silicon Valley and I don't really have a whole lot of say in that, that development. And yet it will profoundly affect the life of my coworkers and my life as well.

So sometimes that's frustrating. I'd like a little more say in how stuff rolls out. But I think then another factor that helps to create digital fatigue, to use your term, an excellent way to talk about it, is that work culture today has intensified at the very same time that there's a lot of downsizing. And so we're all...

tasked with more responsibilities. And our digital tools seem to promise us that we can do all these responsibilities, because we all have a Canva account, or we all can record a podcast, we just have to buy our own little USB microphone, and so forth. But it's hilarious how our job descriptions are proliferating in the tasks that we're expected to do.

So that's another source of digital overload. And then I think one final one is just the weakness of the human will. We are distractible creatures, and we are easily excited and deluded by the possibilities of something new. And so I think sometimes I am my own worst enemy, and I make myself digitally overwhelmed simply by not

honoring the timer on my TikTok reels or Instagram reels. So I think, yeah, learning to practice the virtue of self-control is also an important aspect in fighting digital overwhelm.

amazing amazing i love something that you said there you know every point that you made spot on valid you know

Can you still hear me? The weakness of the human will, know, the excitement to get on new technology. not even, we're not part of the process. We don't even know, you know, everything that went into it, but we're just excited to jump on something new. Not fully knowing, you know, what the repercussions or what the downside might be, you know, years down the line. It's interesting, but.

I love what you also said, know, our ability to control some of those things and just be in charge, you know, can really help us manage.


 So I have a follow-up question on that. And I'm just wondering, do you think that this digital fatigue impacts certain professionals?

Craig (14:29.154)
Right, right, right. Okay. Thanks for your patience.

Olajumoke Fatoki (14:45.528)
or industries more than the

Craig (14:52.29)
Yes, that's a good question. We don't all experience this in the same way, do we? I talked with a guy who worked on the warehouse floor of UPS, and I asked him about digital overload, and he said, in a sense, I guess it's there, but a lot of my work is analog. A lot of my work is like making sure this gets from here to there.

And I use some tools to do that, but it's not particularly overwhelming. On the other hand, somebody, let's see, another field that I worked with, professional in the field of marketing, her work is entirely remote. She's working with a team that she hasn't met in person. Digital overwhelms a constant factor for her. She described the experience of like staring at the screen in a Zoom meeting, trying to figure out


to relate to somebody because this is the only data I have. People talk about the work of, I remember talking with someone who is in HR and yeah the sheer level of accountability and digital responsibility was pretty fierce and pretty overwhelming. So I do think it varies by sectors.

I wonder what the worst is. What do you think, Ola? What do you think would be like a super hard field?


At the top of my mind, I would think that the tech guys, they deal with a lot of technology. everything they do has to do with coming online, with technology, with devices. They can almost not escape it. Or the guy who works probably in a warehouse and just moves things around like the example of the guy you gave and maybe


Olajumoke Fatoki (16:52.178)
the only time when he gets to use the computer, maybe when he needs to, you know, account for the inventory, you know, or what they've done the entire day. But for a digital marketer, for a product manager, for instance, you're probably constantly, you know, faced with technology. And yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And even that guy on the warehouse floor is thinking about technology because there is always the possibility that his job could become automated. There's that's always in the wings that a robot could do what he's doing. And he's wondering when his manager is going to figure that out and if they'll have the money to do that and that sort of thing. So.

That is overwhelming and tiring in its own way. You're always thinking like, I could be replaced by a machine pretty soon. What do I do?

Absolutely, absolutely. That's a really good point you brought out there. That thought alone can be overwhelming. All right. Thank you. think we're getting there little by little. All right. So we'll move to the next question right now. So.


Now, of course, the role of workplaces organizations cannot be overemphasized, you know, in this subject. All right. So you mentioned in your book that organized role in reducing digital overwhelm. So what steps do you think organizations can put in place to create a culture that embraces technology while mitigating overload?

Craig (18:42.52)
Mm-hmm. That's the whole game, isn't it? Gracing while mitigating, yes. I think there are a number of things you could do. So in my book, I explore six modes of communication. So you could think of those as like approaches to communication. And one of the pieces of advice that I came out from this book was it's a good idea to be skillful in more than one mode of communication.

Olajumoke Fatoki (18:44.825)
Yeah.

Craig (19:11.916)
So some people are really good. Yes? Yo, yes. Yeah, sure. The whole thing or just the last bit? OK. So one piece of advice that I came away from this book with was it's a good idea to be able to practice more than one mode of communication. Some people are very good at a mode like

writing a really long email and just making everything absolutely clear. So if you ever need to refer to that email, you can go back to it and it's written very well and it's very clear and it's, you know, it's thorough. Other people don't read emails. Many people don't read emails and, you know, they read the first two lines and they're like, TDLR, this is crazy. And then they might be more interested in a conversation.

They might be more interested in a phone core or a text exchange. And just learning how to change up your mode is important for organizational flourishing. So I think if managers could just raise this point, like some of us communicate this way with this mode, some of us communicate that way, we need to get good at more than one mode. I think that's a step in the direction of creating an organizational culture that isn't digitally overwhelming.

I'll say one more thing, Ola, and that is that I think people who run companies can become overly excited about what digital platforms will do for them. There's so much power and there's so much capacity and potential in digital platforms. They're amazing. But if you multiply those, you reach a tipping point where people are just, they're just too many platforms and the productivity goes down. So.

I think sometimes doing an audit of what platforms are in use and actually are useful in your company or your nonprofit, your church or your school might be a good regular practice to help diminish digital overwhelm.

You know, not necessarily. You know, sometimes it's just for us to feel good and, you know, to feel among. So when we are speaking latest technology, we can also say, my organization uses that. If you indeed, you know, try to do an audit, like you said, you would find out that a lot of those things are not really being used. And, you know, we've just acquired them. All right. You know, just to,

add to your point on that. There was something else that you also said that stood out to me and it's about leadership. You said if line managers or if managers could have such conversations with their team to say, guys, you cannot be straight jacketed. There has to be other ways that you can communicate. Do you understand?

Yes.

with and I feel like the this communication or this information has to be done with a lot of awareness creation making people understand the the long-term effects you know of some of those things because if you really want to

You're not just telling them to switch up their mode just for switching up stick, but you're providing them data. And of course, we live in a data-driven world as to why you're suggesting such things and also bringing other suggestions that they can also explore, other means that they can also explore in getting conversations. I know there was a time that we had something like that in my previous organization where

we're pushing the message around that emitting that code, you

phone core, you don't necessarily need to bring people on a Zoom core when you could just put a phone core across and it's even more effective rather than bringing people to a meeting when you could have easily put across a phone core. So things like that could really help. If I understand what you're saying, I think that these are some of the things that people need to begin to think about.

Craig (24:04.344)
Yes. Yes.

Craig (24:12.544)
Yes, yes, you've got it, exactly. Those are really great examples. I wish I'd thought of some of those examples when I was writing this book. That's excellent. I appreciate that. Ola.

Olajumoke Fatoki (24:12.859)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (24:20.113)
All right. thank you so much. All right. Interesting, interesting. And I think I do have a follow-up question on that.

Olajumoke Fatoki (24:41.721)
Okay, I don't know if you do have an example, but if not, we can skip this. But what I have here is, can you share an example of a company or a team that you've studied that seems to have gotten this right? Maybe other people can take a cue from them.

Craig (24:59.822)
Yes.

Yes, I can think of some examples.

Olajumoke Fatoki (25:06.854)
Amazing.

Craig (25:09.228)
Yes. So there are

I think this is a little bit of a dicey example, Ola, but I'll try it with you and see if it works. One of the problems that people run into in digital spaces is the ways that sexual harassment or discrimination in one form or another is sometimes made easier in digital spaces.

Olajumoke Fatoki (25:17.723)
I know.

Craig (25:42.222)
And so because there's a little bit of a distance between us because there's a bit more detachment in digital space it can be easier to forget the fullness of the dignity and worth and value of the person you're talking to They become a little bit like a task that you just have to get through So I I think of cases where managers have managed

to communicate that respect to their employees as really signal ethical examples. One woman professional told me about experiences of mild sexual harassment, not anything that was something you'd put in a profile in a newspaper or something, or that you would prosecute.

Nonetheless, it was sexual harassment, comments about her looks or comments about her outfit and things like that. And she contrasted that with a manager who was so very careful and respectful of her person and her proficiency, which is actually the bigger, in some ways, is just as big an issue. Do you respect what the other person can do instead of turning them into an object?

Olajumoke Fatoki (27:04.317)
Hmm.

Craig (27:08.898)
So that's one example, I think, of learning to treat people respectfully and to honor their expertise even in digital spaces. One other example that comes to mind is a woman professional who was in Chicago working for a company that dealt with all kinds of clients from all parts of the world. And

She was also a mom, so she had some kids at home and she was working in a remote space. And she created this kind of staging area, I guess you could say, where she would work with clients on screen. And she said sometimes her kids were like actually at her feet pulling on her knees, you know, while she's like trying to work these things. But she realized that, yeah, she grasped that the person on the other end of this core

Olajumoke Fatoki (27:57.199)
Hmm.

Craig (28:04.82)
is a person with, you know, they got kids too, or they have other kinds of challenges and questions. And so she just learned a simple practice when she started a Zoom meeting of just saying, how are you doing today? And how could I help you? Is there any way that I could be of assistance to you? It was a very open-ended question. And maybe there was nothing. Maybe it was just the fact that she showed care. But I think that that was an interpersonal move that really made a significant difference.

So I think taking some of our everyday face-to-face practices into digital space can really be a simple move in work culture to honor the other person. So those are a couple of examples that come to

Olajumoke Fatoki (28:51.041)
Amazing and it's interesting that an example came to mind as well as you were speaking. Yeah so did I mention that I'm from Nigeria?

Craig (28:56.963)
home.

Olajumoke Fatoki (29:07.47)
Okay, can you hear me now? All right. So said, did I mention to you that I'm from Nigeria, right? That I'm from Nigeria? Yes. Yes. All right. So I used to work as an HR professional back home. And I recall when COVID hit, one of the things that we did as an organization, one of our responses to our employees as an organization was what you just, you know, alluded to.

Craig (29:08.129)
Yes, yes. Yes, I can, yes.

Craig (29:15.714)
Yes, in our pre-interview, yes, you mentioned that, yes.

Olajumoke Fatoki (29:36.785)
we would do a check-in meeting. We encouraged line managers to do that. And at some point, we collaborated with some organizations to come to speak to people about mental health issues and how to manage themselves in something that just happened to all of us that we weren't prepared for.

Craig (29:54.712)
Mmm.

Craig (30:02.744)
Right. Right.

Olajumoke Fatoki (30:03.63)
And I recall that on one of those calls when we had a mental health expert, you know, on the core sharing some of the coping strategies.

Olajumoke Fatoki (30:19.077)
You know, one person dropped in the comments to say that she was experiencing abuse, intimate partner abuse, you know, work had being an escape. But when COVID happened, , they began, she was stuck in the house with this person. And, you know, there was really nobody to discuss with, but because we brought such a conversation and I don't know what part

Craig (30:37.496)
Wow.

Craig (30:41.244)
my.

Olajumoke Fatoki (30:50.512)
you know, touched her, that made her open up. Of course, we treated it anonymously. She didn't reveal her identity, but we're able to take up that conversation from there. You know, just buttressing your point about bringing the humaneness, you know, the dignity of humanity, even into digital spaces. And, you these are some of the ways that we can really help. That's how we're able to help, you know, this lady, because we had that session.

Craig (31:11.096)
guest.

Yeah.

All

Olajumoke Fatoki (31:19.121)
She felt connected to the speaker and were able to schedule a session for them to meet.

Craig (31:27.32)
Yeah. Wow.

Olajumoke Fatoki (31:27.799)
add to your point on the need to remain human, you know, and not treat people like a list of responsibilities or just another task just because of the technological distance, you know, between us. Yeah.

Craig (31:44.046)
Right. I do think it's a temptation in the use of technology. It quantifies everything. It works on the basis of a logic of efficiency and humans are not entirely quantifiable and they're not often efficient. And so we have these tools that are kind of designed to make us, you know, sort of control a situation.

Olajumoke Fatoki (31:52.87)
Yeah.

Craig (32:13.654)
and make it maximally efficient and productive. we're using these tools with people. And that means that we have to deliberately and intentionally practice some of the values that you were describing just now. yeah, that's a cross tension, I think, in our organizations. Our tools have a bias towards efficiency and control. And people have a bias towards needing love.

respect, honor, all those sort of basic, decent human values. So yeah, that's huge.

Olajumoke Fatoki (32:52.946)
Honestly, I feel like this conversation is deeper than what I thought when we shared the core because as we are speaking and based on my experiences, a lot of things are just coming to my mind. When we bring some of this technology and we introduce them to our employees, we teach them how to use it, but we don't technology itself, but we don't train the people how to

Craig (32:57.898)
You

Olajumoke Fatoki (33:23.025)
use the technology, you know, and ensure that there is still a balance, you know, in the people, in the people aspect of things, which bring them out to use the device, but not how to really relate with the people behind the device. I hope I'm making sense. Do you see my line of thoughts? Yeah.

Craig (33:38.35)
Right, right, right, Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think that's an often ignored aspect of it. You're just sort of expected to pick up on that. we probably, I think you're right, we'd probably do well to reflect on that explicitly and not just implicitly. Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (33:54.039)
Exactly.

Olajumoke Fatoki (33:59.856)
Yeah, interesting. All right, so much to unpack in this conversation. And I really hope that our listeners are taking the lessons and picking one or two things, because that's really what this is about, providing actionable steps and strategies that people immediately begin to implement. And we know that the subject of digital overwhelm is a big one.

Craig (34:18.475)
yes.

Olajumoke Fatoki (34:26.923)
And that's why we having this conversation. So please, if you must grab your notes, if before now you haven't done that, grab your pen and paper and scribble as much as you can and take learnings from this conversation. All right. Thank you so much, Craig. It's been interesting so far and we still have a few more questions to go, but I like to check in with my guests. how

Craig (34:56.066)
this is going great. I'm enjoying the way this conversation is moving between the very, practical stuff and also the big moral stuff that I think is often in the background of these practical questions.

Olajumoke Fatoki (35:09.456)
Interesting. Thank you. All right, so we'll move to our next question. And this is to individual professionals that are navigating the digital overload that we are speaking about. We already said it in our conversation that sometimes some of these things comes down to personal boundaries. So what advice would you give to someone who is struggling to set limits?

without sacrificing their career growth.

Craig (35:43.832)
Yes.

It's hard when you're especially new in your career, you don't have a lot of choices about how you're going to pace your work or about the cadence of the responsibilities. It's just everything comes at you. And sometimes it comes at you really fast. And you're both trying to figure out how to do it. And then you're trying to do it. And it's a lot. So I think, yeah, I don't want to make that

sound any easier or that I can make that, you know, a whole lot easier just by a flip of a switch. But I do think that some of the wisest rising professionals that I talked to, I remember a conversation about technological breakdown, like when your tools don't work, and just asking them like how they coped with that, because that can be a really stressful thing. You're trying to do this other task.

It's due at a certain time and a certain day, and then your platform goes down, or your lights break, or your camera doesn't work, or whatever sundry million things can happen. And I think some of the wisest advice I heard was, I'll say two, because both of them were really helpful. One was the role of gender in this whole conversation. Sometimes,

people of different genders are expected to have different levels of knowledge in regards to technology. So I was talking with a guy who, like the other people on his crew, just assumed that because he was a dude, he knew how to do certain things. And he just had a very different background. It just wasn't a part of his life. And he didn't know how to do that stuff. And so he kind of had to give himself grace and say,

Olajumoke Fatoki (37:40.047)
Hmm.

Craig (37:41.038)
Even though everybody around me is maybe a little perturbed that I don't know how to do these things that seem to them just what men know how to do, yeah, like that's just not a part of my background and I have to figure this out. So I think giving yourself grace is an important aspect of that. I think the second piece of advice is to practice some kind of mindfulness exercise on a regular basis.

Because technology tempts us into thinking that we can just keep moving faster and faster and faster, it's all the more important for us to step back from our work and kind of sit with our work and allow ourselves to become reflective about the work. I actually think that's a better way to grow and mature as a professional.

Even if initially it seems like you're moving a little slower, it's like you're building a foundation for your career that will withstand the pressures and intensities of the workplace. So those are a couple of pieces of advice.

Olajumoke Fatoki (38:57.731)
Interesting. But I would like you to take that part again, because I really want to hear it. know, yeah, the last part of the conversation. Yeah, the second one, yes.

Craig (39:03.498)
Okay, The second one? Yeah. I think that it's hard for rising professionals to ever slow down. Their technology, our technologies tempt us into thinking we can move faster and faster. We can constantly accelerate, become more and more productive. But I think it's important

to, especially when we're in technological spaces, where we're dealing with lots of tools or platforms or we're just dealing with the digital. I think it's important to practice some kind of mindfulness exercises. And these might be at the start of your day or they might be actually in the middle of your day. There might be sort of micro exercises you can do of just like sometimes with my students, we'll do something called the flop, where we just sort of

stand up from our desks and then just flop over from the waist and let our arms dangle. It corrects your improper breathing, it relaxes your neck muscles, it loosens you up and usually you come out of that feeling, I don't know, a little energized. But it also keeps you from turning into a little machine yourself and become, you know, just trying to turn out faster and faster and faster and faster.

Craig (40:28.418)
I wonder how that resonates with you and your experience.

Olajumoke Fatoki (40:30.225)
Yeah, was just writing it down. Three things that I picked from that. Number one, give yourself grace. And I really love the example of the guy you gave. There's that assumption that men are more technologically inclined than females. But the young man admitted that come, I do not know how to do this and I'm willing to learn.

Craig (40:34.862)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (40:59.299)
the fact that it took out the shame and admitted something that it

Olajumoke Fatoki (41:08.452)
And that really explains what you mean by giving yourself grace. don't have, I mean, psychology is a lot. You might not know everything, but do you understand? So give yourself room, give yourself grace. You know, I think that is really important. And you also talk about mindfulness. I think that's really key. Being in touch with yourself. That's very important as well.

Craig (41:20.046)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (41:37.629)
and regular exercises. This is where a lot of us struggle, especially with consistency. But something I just wanted to add to that is sometimes when we start and we don't, we're unable to continue, we just tend to pack it up. Like, I can't follow through with this. No, that shouldn't be, that shouldn't be at this position. If you couldn't follow through in two weeks, you can pick it up the next week, you know, after that.

And you can pick it up the next week after that, instead of completely packing it up. That since I'm unable to follow through then I'm just going to put this aside. No, the next time you gain, you gain the energy to, you know, to do it, get back to doing it and, you know, continue from there. Don't just pack it up. All right. That would just be the extra bits that I'm going to add.

Craig (42:26.274)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (42:31.586)
Yes. Yes.

Olajumoke Fatoki (42:33.923)
on that subject. Thank you. Thanks, Craig. Yeah.

Craig (42:36.322)
Yes, yeah. Very good.

Olajumoke Fatoki (42:44.547)
Okay so speaking about the the corporate itself, do you think that technology itself can play any role in helping people unplug?

Craig (42:50.35)
I'm

Craig (42:57.774)
Hmm. that's a heck of a question. Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (43:03.505)
Yeah, you know, you mentioned your... Okay, go ahead, please.

Craig (43:04.512)
I am a- I- I can- Yeah. yeah, what were you gonna say?

Olajumoke Fatoki (43:12.373)
I wanted to mention that earlier on you had mentioned that you have your TikTok timer, you have your Instagram timer. Did they really help? Or are there other ways?

Craig (43:21.676)
Mm-hmm. Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, I have to say, I think that there are ways that people can design technology. This is back to the design question, like who's developing the tech? It's not often us, right? It's not often the ordinary workers or managers or company owners even. We're just buying the tech. But I think it's possible at the design level.

Olajumoke Fatoki (43:40.241)
Mm-hmm.

Olajumoke Fatoki (43:47.343)
Yeah.

Craig (43:51.951)
to come up with interfaces that are more humane and more people-centered, more adapted for the kind of creatures that humans are. So I think that's one way that we could do this. And I think things like that show up in... Here's a simple example, but...

One of the most exhausting things about being in a zoom meeting is that you're always sort of checking your own image as you're engaging with other people, which you don't usually have to do in everyday life. I mean you think about how you're looking maybe, but you can't you don't actually look in a mirror every few seconds, which you do in a zoom meeting unless you're an extraordinarily focused person. So like a simple human design element that you know

Zoom and other platforms uses, you can take that image away and you can take yourself off the screen and that's a good accommodation. I think things like that can be really helpful. But I have to say at the same time in response to your question, I'm pretty skeptical that we can tech our way out of tech overwhelm. I don't... It tends to be in the history of technological development that we just sort of...

add more tools, more and more and more layers of media, rather than getting rid of things. yeah, I think we could do a better job at the level of design, but when it comes to implementation and actual operations, I think less is more.

Olajumoke Fatoki (45:35.162)
Hmm.

less is more trusted and you know why i like the big callouts there too like in terms of the design because i think that really is the foundation like that's the big part of

a little bit more could be done from that end. You know, it could, it could really help. And I hope that some of those designers would get to listen to this podcast and do right by us. Okay. Yeah. All right.

Craig (46:08.012)
Yes, that would be good. That'd be good. Someone who's thinking really hard about this and who's been sort of my teacher in this is a Gen Z economist named Kyla Scanlon. she was the one who helped me to notice the way that people who design technology really aren't democratic enough. Like they should have more input from the users.

Olajumoke Fatoki (46:33.733)
Hmm.

Craig (46:34.982)
and what is actually good for the users than they're doing right now. So I credit Kyla Scanlon for pointing that out. I think that's a really good insight.

Olajumoke Fatoki (46:38.138)
Right.

Olajumoke Fatoki (46:45.573)
That's really, really good and I agree with...

Olajumoke Fatoki (46:54.257)
conversation that should be going out there. That's a conversation that should be going out there. All right. Thank you so much. We're getting towards the end of our conversation.

Olajumoke Fatoki (47:13.987)
All right, so it's a good thing that you already mentioned the different generation of people that you've interacted with. So how do you see Gen Z and millennials navigating the digital intensity differently from the older generations? How do you see Gen Z and millennials navigating digital intensity?

Olajumoke Fatoki (47:41.177)
What lessons do you also think that they can learn from each other?

Craig (47:45.656)
Mm-hmm.

I think.

I think a lot of people have noticed that Gen Z are less fearful of technological platforms and devices in the workplace. And that's a real strength on their part. You know, we live in an age increasingly of artificial intelligence. And for many of us, that is so paradigm shaking.

It's so transformative that it's easy to be fearful. And I know I've had days where I'm like, really don't understand my job anymore because of AI. Like, it just feels like there are aspects of my job that don't make sense now. So Gen Z and younger professionals in general often offer a kind of courage in the face of technological change that I really admire. And I think it's really...

it's emulatable. At the same time, like, there can also be a sort of complacency about it too. Just, you know, that courage sometimes is accompanied by complacency. And so the older generations, I'm a Gen-Xer, but the people who remember life before the smartphone or remember life before email, like, I think the wisdom there...

Craig (49:19.814)
of the kind of basic human norms of interaction is something that Gen Z folk can learn from their more seasoned colleagues. So I think just getting good at asking questions of older employees, just like, what was this like before all this happened? And like, what are some of the trade-offs? Because a Gen Xer...

Olajumoke Fatoki (49:41.425)
Hmm.

Craig (49:46.348)
was in the world before email was, basically. And so they're, in some ways, well positioned to say, hey, we gained this, we lost that. And I think that can be some workplace wisdom.

Olajumoke Fatoki (50:06.258)
But I think that's really an interesting one. Please don't lose your train of thought. I just wanted to quickly chip this in. So how did people interact without emails back then? How was work done? How did work get done?

Craig (50:18.871)
You

It is crazy to think about. is. it's crazy to think about. When I first started, well, I wrote about this in my book, Digital Overwhelm. I told the story of like what it was like when I was first, you know, in the, in the workplace, you know, email was there, but it wasn't very important yet. And I couldn't check it at home. I couldn't check it on my, on my phone. didn't have a smartphone. Like they weren't in existence. And so.

Olajumoke Fatoki (50:31.236)
Interesting.

Olajumoke Fatoki (50:42.691)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (50:50.304)
It was kind of an event, you know, you would go into your office to check your email. But before that, you know, like I also was a professor before I didn't, you know, I didn't have a computer in my office even. And so, I mean, I think that you got your work done through a hard copy. Everything was analog. And so you ended up carrying more stuff around and you ended up having more conversations with people and

Yeah, those face-to-face meetings were doubly important. They were all you had in many ways. like today, if I forget something, I'll say, I'll send you a note. Right after, you know, we have this meeting, I'll send you a note, no problem. Whether we remember to do that is another thing, but at least there's the possibility there. But back then, if you forgot something, like you were in trouble, so you...

Maybe it took a little more time to prepare for meetings because you knew that like this was gonna be it. So, yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (51:55.055)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (51:58.328)
There was a phone, too. That was weird. Like, there was like an office phone on my desk and that was a little more important than office phones are today. I don't even have an office phone now because, you know, I carry my phone everywhere. And some of my colleagues talked about times where there was one phone on the whole hall, you know. So if you had to place a core, you would go down to the end of the hall and use the phone and maybe wait for your colleagues to finish. So all sorts of funny situations, at least funny to us today.

Olajumoke Fatoki (51:58.467)
Interesting.

Olajumoke Fatoki (52:28.555)
Yeah, I think those are the things that we are missing, you know, in today's world. Speaking of everything we've been sharing here today, the human connectedness, you know, all of those interactions that we used to have back then. Today, someone can just sit down in their office, everything he needs to communicate with everyone in the office is right there on his computer. And does he need to get up to interact with people? Or you don't even need to leave your house, you know, to interact with people. And you're just

Craig (52:49.486)
Mm-hmm.

Olajumoke Fatoki (53:00.529)
We are gradually losing the human connectivity, the human connection, you know, and all of that. And as you were sharing that story, that was just what I kept thinking about. Back then, I think it was also easier, you know, for you guys to leave work at work and then go home to do home, right? You know, but these days we carry work everywhere. We have our emails on the go. We want to be on top of everything. And, you know, the line keeps getting blurrier.

Craig (53:16.298)
yeah, right, right, yes.

Olajumoke Fatoki (53:30.117)
We can't even see the lines anymore. Interesting times, I must say. Interesting signs.

Craig (53:34.558)
Mm-hmm. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed, Ola.

Olajumoke Fatoki (53:39.277)
really in we live in very interesting times and I'm curious to see you know what the next 10 years is going to look like but that's a conversation for another time yeah all right

Craig (53:43.298)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (53:47.198)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, indeed.

Olajumoke Fatoki (53:56.892)
So let's move to the final question. Our time is fastened. So looking ahead, how do you think workplace dynamics will evolve? See, I didn't even realize that this was my next question. How do you think workplace dynamics will evolve to address digital fatigue? Are there trends or innovations you're particularly excited about?

Craig (54:16.406)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (54:21.422)
Well, I mean, I think that there's some murmuring right now about people getting off of social media, just not posting as often as they used to. And I think that on a company and an organizational level, there's also an awareness that like the approaches to online marketing that we've been using, where we put up a post and we include a link, they're just not working.

And so we're realizing like, we have to shift the ways that we're doing, we're communicating about what our company offers or what it provides or what it does. I think basically that's probably good. And I think that enables companies to think of just like other modes of interacting with their clients and their audiences. So I think that's, those are two shifts.

a shift away from social media. There's a kind of social media exhaustion felt by a lot of young people, especially today. And then just, yeah, I've read a millennial, Anne Helen Peterson, saying, why did I post so many private things about my life? You know, when I was in my 20s, why did I do that? And so I think that's another indicator of like, yeah, like it is strange how we've

Olajumoke Fatoki (55:38.448)
Hmm.

you

Craig (55:50.176)
interacted with our media. I think that there's some growing reflectiveness about that. That's promising. I would really, this is a wish on my part, but I wish that companies would be more articulate about how they're using artificial intelligence and develop like company-wide frameworks for like, here's how we do it at this.

organization. Here's how our firm handles this. I think a lot of people are using AI, but they're using it in different ways and they're often using it in ways that are either on the down low or they're actually hiding it. And so I think being more explicit about that, that's a wish on my part for the future that companies would say, hey, AI is a powerful tool. Here's how we use it here.

Olajumoke Fatoki (56:51.033)
Interesting. Can you hear me?

Craig (56:55.928)
Yes, I can.

Olajumoke Fatoki (56:56.921)
Okay, that's an interesting one. And I think that's really the way to go. When organizations develop policies around, you know, this subject, it's something that has come to stay, we can't, we cannot shive away from it. It has come to stay. you know, organizations can just do better by putting structure around it, by putting policies around it, so that there is no misuse.

Craig (57:21.912)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (57:26.449)
You know of that. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I love what you said. You know the shift from social media people beginning to again tap into their creativity. You know before social media we had a way that we used to do onboarding different things that we did. So we can reinvent you know and come up we can get innovative you know once again.

Craig (57:27.055)
huh. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Craig (57:42.286)
Mm-hmm.

Craig (57:55.566)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (57:56.186)
and come up with new ways to do these things. Social media has done its time and it did a great job at that. So maybe it's time to start rethinking other ways of approaching these things as we get set for the future. Yeah. Which is here. All right. Interesting, interesting, interesting. Thank you so much, Craig.

Craig (58:08.59)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Craig (58:16.198)
Mm-hmm. Hear, I love that.

Olajumoke Fatoki (58:26.289)
We've run through our core questions for the day. I know that time is fast spent. We're supposed to end this session now, but permit me to steal extra five minutes from you. If that's okay, please let me know. All right. Thank you. Our rapid fire question. I'm just going to take only one because of our time.

Craig (58:40.566)
It is. It is. is.

Craig (58:49.848)
Mm-hmm.

Olajumoke Fatoki (58:55.287)
entering the workplace. What would it be?

Craig (59:01.484)
I couldn't hear the question, I'm sorry.

Olajumoke Fatoki (59:03.413)
Okay, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self entering the workplace like you were starting, you know, your journey all over again, what would it be?

Craig (59:08.162)
Mm-hmm.

Thank

Craig (59:15.01)
Be less concerned about impressing people and more concerned about becoming good at what you do.

Olajumoke Fatoki (59:21.969)
be more focused on what you do than trying to impress others. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Craig, thank you so much for an insightful and inspiring conversation. Thank you for helping us understand the roots of digital overwhelm and also unpacking the practical strategies for managing it. I think this has really been so impactful and I believe it's going to be so helpful for our listeners.

Craig (59:24.184)
Yeah.

Olajumoke Fatoki (59:52.113)
Thank you so much. So quickly, I want to connect with you and engage with more of what you do. where can they find you? What platforms do you use and how can they connect with you? Do you want to share that with us quickly?

Craig (01:00:09.068)
I would be delighted. Thank you. And thank you, Ola, for hosting such a gracious and interesting conversation today. I appreciate your examples and the way you've chimed in with what I've been suggesting. If people want to interact with me, I'd be so pleased. Of course, I'd love for them to buy my book, Digital Overwhelm, which is available wherever books are sold. But an easy way to connect with me is with my website. It's called The Mode Switch.

Olajumoke Fatoki (01:00:21.97)
Thank you.

Craig (01:00:38.464)
all one word, the modeswitch.com. And if you were to just Google Craig Matson and the mode switch, it would bring it up pretty quickly. that's good way for us to connect.

Olajumoke Fatoki (01:00:51.981)
Amazing. Thank you so much. Digital overwhelm book is available wherever they sell books. So guys go look for it. You're going to learn a lot, you know, and I'll personally also go look for it myself. Thank you so much, Craig. So what would be your final words as we wrap up this session? What would you have to say in closing?

Craig (01:01:07.48)
Thank you.

Craig (01:01:14.752)
I think that the final word for me always is gift. Try to receive communication in workplaces as often as you can as a gift.

Olajumoke Fatoki (01:01:28.491)
Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much. I think that is a really great way to bring this to an end. Thank you so much, Craig. And thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Thrive Careers podcast. And until we come your way again next time, keep thriving.